Somewhat recently there has been a trend of vandalizing, removing, or pushing for the removal of confederate monuments. link

From what I've observed the main push for doing this is that these monuments are representations of racism and serve to honor racists and therefore should be removed. The naysayers believe that this is censorship among other things. So I wanted to see what people here thought.

Personally I'm of the opinion that we should leave them up. Censorship is a good argument against it. But more than that, I don't think history should be erased. Removing historical monuments like these is the first step in people being able to pretend like it didn't happen at all.

Yeah, we've got a lot of that going on around here at the moment. Interesting how these statues just sat there quietly for decades, and then as soon as Trump took office, bam! Offensive! Must remove immediately!

I think that, that just comes hand in hand with political tensions rising. People are just seeing negativity everywhere because the political environment has become more hostile.

I feel like this is a very black and white question. It really depends on how reasonably offense the representative was vs what it symbolizes...

It isn't that black and white. You can choose either yes or no and then elaborate on the exceptions. "I disagree but xyz statue should be taken down because of xyz." You aren't confined to just commenting yes or no.

Honestly even before Trump was so called in office I want those confederate statues taking down because of what they represent. Not every historical statue should be taken down but offensive ones to entire ethnicities and races yes. Those statues literally was put there to remind Blacks of Jim Crow south and alot of Confederate whites was intent of keeping segregation the same and what not. Would not like to have Nazi statues now would we? Nazis were considered the bad guys so we wouldn't put those statues up just because we wanted to commemorate the heroes of Nazi Germany. Regardless if the statue commemorates Americans. There was nothing good about it. History isn't being erased. Should we have sexist pricks that were the opponents of women suffrage be up as statues because we shouldn't erase history? Should we have the people who bombed 9/11 be immortalized in statues because we cannot erase history? Should we have that Las Vegas prick be immortalized because we cannot erase history. Plus 99% of those statues were not even built in the Civil War. Most minorities (especially blacks) generally see those statues as a form of racism. It's like the Confederate flag. THAT flag was used for white nationalism. I do not give a damn if people want to so called keep it up. KKK has used that flag and other racist swats have used that flag to signal white nationality. It's not censorship. No offense zanny erasing history is a very weak argument for this. There's ALOT of things Americans remember despite NOT having statues for it. You can literally read alot of that stuff in a book.

I am not even trying to be offensive or be insulting to anyone. You don't erase history by taken down a statue. If a man was beating up a women statue was there would not have wanted it to be taken down? Don't anyone use the argument that this form of discrimination is different than the other. No it isn't. The point of this is quite simple. You would not want something that literally represented the bad parts of a defining moment in our nation's history to be kept or built as a statue.

Directed at anyone: And we're not seeing negativity everywhere. Listen to what Trump as been doing. Look what he did in Charlotteville. He literally said people on BOTH sides had good people. Nationalistic twats and the people that were not twats. What many are trying to do is NOT allow this country to be further in racism. Trump is a very racist jerk you can see evidence in the news (NO I am not going to tolerate do you listen to fake news) I listen to unbiased news.

There is literally nothing anyone could say for the argument of keeping statues up = preserve history because of all the aforementioned facts.

Sorry for the lateish response. The day I posted this ended up being a shitty day and I didn't want to debate while in a pissy mood.

I'm not saying that every monument has to be kept up. But shouldn't some be left up? The ones that aren't ridiculous offensive? I just don't think that we should be taking down everything that we don't like. History has its ugly patches for sure and I think that should be made obvious to remind people not to repeat those mistakes. I think these monuments are all about perception; they don't have to be viewed as things to commemorate greatness. They can stand to show what the people used to think of as great. For me statues like the ones being vandalized don't strike me as honorary statues but rather as simply pieces of history.
For me though; more than anything its the destruction of these monuments. Perhaps they can be taken down but I don't think that they should be destroyed (at least not the ones that were erected in the era they depict). Perhaps they could go into a museum where they can be used to educate people like a book or a documentary. Of course taking them down isn't erasing history but its erasing a part of it, however small. I simply think (as stated) that these could be used as another means to educate people on the subject. It just has to be done properly. Of course that's idealistically speaking.

I do think that a good handful of people do see negativity everywhere (I'm mostly referring to those kinds of people that make 'air conditioning is sexist' claims). And you know what sometimes the average man does see negativity every where; But sometimes that negativity that is seen is justified. Sometimes you need that sight to get shit fixed. What I meant by that statement is that we're simply living in a kind of politically heated time and it puts people on edge. It's easier to misread things in a tenser environment. But as you said there are so many good people who are trying to keep the world from rifting further apart.

^The problem is they are used to commemorate greatness. All of the confederate civil war statues are negative and offensive and ton of racists remembering their glory days. If they are not destroyed they need to be taken out of the general public eye tout suite. I really do not want them to put in a confederate museum,I rather them be destroyed. Like I said there's many things the world remembers without the used of statues so regardless if you want to keep them up or not saying people are going to forget history does not make sense if they decided to remove it. We do not need confederate statues to teach history just like we do not need a slavery statue to teach history. You have books and our generation with the internet can read it even easier than those in other generations. Again saving those statues when they are all offensive does not teach history. All it does is commemorate. You use a statue to celebrate history or commemorate history and we should not commemorate anything those racists ever did. You gotta think about the other minorities and everyone who isn't white. It is not just or keep it up it'll educate people it is a DIRECT image of white racism if they know anything about the civil war. If I erect a statue that was depicting nazis on American ground do you honestly think most people would want those statues to stay up. You can use your argument there. We can use those statues to inform people about history. Most people will think whoever erected those statues up to be anti semitic. REGARDLESS of the reason because of what the statues are and what they stand for. Just imagine anyone of those statues to be adolf hitler or a depiction of what happened at those camps. The uproar that will happen. It is the same thing and it is cultural insensitive to think you need to keep them up because they teach people. It's not about perception at all. It's knowing the facts. And regardless if they are "pieces of history" it is culturally insensitive. I know alot of things other countries sell and they do not know the significance of why it is being sold there other than the fact it's American history.

There was an American toothpaste that advertised black people having extremely white teeth and the teeth were purposely whitened beyond reality as a statement to say that they are the closest we will get to being white and have nothing to do with cleanliness.

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That is a part of our history should we keep it to tell others what not to do? No you read this shit in a book.

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blackface is also apart of our history shall we keep it up as a statue to show people the history of it? No because it's offensive.

Try and use your logic about this for alot of things and see if it adds up. If you wouldn't do it for a nazi wartime statue that depicted adolf hitler and his men. Then why would you do it for the civil war? Don't use the argument well Hitler was worse. That's deflecting and not at all what I am saying. There's a TON of things we do not need a statue to remember. It's not about perception. It's about cultural insensitivity. Saying if we destroy them we destroy history does not make sense. You have photographs of those statues all over the internet. You can be educated there or hell read an actual book. You do not need an offensive statue that affects more than our individual perceptions. Above all it is culturally insensitive.

Imma just leave link here.

^I do not care all about Confederate army because of what they were doing. As far as Ia m concerned. They don't deserve anything and especially satisfaction. I'd sooner agree with zanhar's argument than yours

Not to mention those guys were breaking the constitution and seceding from the union. They felt the Northerners was threatening their way of life? Because those guys were far too ignorant to stop using humans as cattle. I do not care for anything any confederate army mementos or their families. This viewpoint is literally the very reason why I want the statues down and forgotten.

All confederate statues should all be taken down, or a statue honoring slaves should be put up right next to it. I don't see many of those being made though.

@zan honestly zan maybe having them in a museum is a good idea but they should definitely be removed from current positions.

Sorry for the delayed response. Work has been extra busy this month; by the time I get home I'm just exhausted.

All of the confederate civil war statues are negative and offensive and ton of racists remembering their glory days. This is why I said I think they belong in museums. I feel like museums offer a more neutral view. They don't try to commemorate nor demonize. They just show the artifact as it is with some facts about it. A good museum anyways. That way they are (as you put it) out of the public eye. Like I said there's many things the world remembers without the used of statues. For me I feel as though it's one thing to see pictures and read about things and another to actually see it in person. Like the northern lights; they're awesome to look at via a computer screen but they still don't feel real to me in some sense. I know they are but they seem so distant. Or like the Berlin wall--you can read about that but it seems so foreign if you've never been. Basically seeing the monument makes it feel more real and it's much harder to detach oneself from the reality of it when you're directly exposed to it. Which is why I think a museum would be a good idea. Not even just a confederate museum, but just a regular old history museum or a civil war one. It is not just or keep it up it'll educate people it is a DIRECT image of white racism if they know anything about the civil war. If I erect a statue that was depicting nazis on American ground do you honestly think most people would want those statues to stay up. Both of these points are also why I push for museums or other educational functions. Instead of using these statues to commemorate I think that there should be a push to use them as teaching opportunities.
Overall I think that I'm more in support of getting these monuments used for something that could be positive & educational rather than pushing to simply keep them erect.

I wasn't able to follow the first link it gave me an 'error 404'. And the second one gave me this message; "This XML file does not appear to have any style information associated with it."

All of this said, though I do not support Hitler, if there was a historical statue of him I'd say the same thing. He's a bad dude, most people know it (just as most people know that racism is bad). And a statue of him could be moved to a museum and used as a teaching moment and as a relic/reminder of a darker time that shouldn't be repeated.
Basically I think that it's about how the monuments are handled and used.

Currently, I do agree with you, they are being used in a more destructive way. That's what needs to change. And yes I do agree that they should be removed from their current positions.

^Yes you and my brother have enlightened me on this opinion. We must teach others despite how disgusting that part of our history is.

Dear Sir--

Absence from Lexington has prevented my receiving until to-day your letter of the 26th ult., inclosing an invitation from the Gettysburg Battle-field Memorial Association, to attend a meeting of the officers engaged in that battle at Gettysburg, for the purpose of marking upon the ground by enduring memorials of granite the positions and movements of the armies on the field. My engagements will not permit me to be present. I believe if there, I could not add anything material to the information existing on the subject. I think it wiser, moreover, not to keep open the sores of war but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavored to obliterate the marks of civil strife, to commit to oblivion the feelings engendered.

Very respectfully,
Your obedient servant,
R. E. Lee.

Question: When were these statues erected?

Answer: Post-1900; 50 years + after the civil war ended.

Question: Why were they erected?

Answer: During the suffrage movement granting voting rights to women and non-White citizens, certain groups in the south like the KKK were feeling threatened and needed to establish their "culture" and remind others of their place. Many glorifying statues of Confederate generals were established and dedicated during this time and many more were built in the 1960s in direct opposition of the civil rights movements.

Question: Why doesn't Germany have any statues of Hitler?

Answer: Because statues aren't a way to remember history, they are a way to glorify it. We build statues of individuals who achieved and accomplished great things. Regardless, Hitler is not forgotten, indeed, Germany refuses to forget. They teach about his atrocities in history classes, in countless museums, and in books which can contextualize his actions.

Taking down monuments isn't denying history. Leaving them up is. It's glorifying and celebrating things that are not worth glorifying or celebrating, in a manner that has no context or educational value. You want to talk about erasing history? Ask a Southerner why the civil war was fought. Odds are, they'll say State Rights. Except the Confederacy wanted the Federal government to overturn any Northern State's local laws protecting fugitive slaves. So, you know, only "state rights" when it aligns with defending slavery. Not to mention every single seceding state's declaration dedicating its fight to upholding the institution of slavery.

The very fact that less than half Americans identify slavery as the chief cause of the civil war shows how poorly we "remember" our history.

^All has been said. By Blind also.

Definitely no.