Monrose Racism is so much more than skin color. I admit that there's something in me that makes me feel something negative towards immigrants with 'black' skin in Norway. It's not because of their skin color (that's just how I manage to see which country/continent they're from), it's because of where they might have lived or where their parents have lived. There's way too many immigrants in Norway, and if we don't do something soon, they are gonna be everywhere. That wouldn't be a problem for me, if they lived just like us (remember, this is in general, the way I feel it is). They demand Mosques, pictures of pigs being removed from public walls, halal meat in prison and the list goes on and on. We have just discovered a terror plan that was going to kill a lot of people in my own home town. People that I know is in danger right now. I am in danger, and I hate the fact that it's ignorant people that have elected this government. They are way too naive. So maybe that's racism in your eyes, but I'm against immigration because of all the differences between our society and theirs. I want to protect my country, my friends and myself. And about gay marriage... Like I've said before, I can understand both sides very well. It's against the religion, so I don't get why gay people believe in God in the first place?

Cinders In response to Monrose. A) Recently, I've finally understood why I don't understand the immigration debate (in any country). It's because I have this radical idea that people are people are people, and deserve a good life no matter where they come from, and have the right to seek out that good life. Call me crazy. And yeah, I know I support illegals with my taxes, and I surprisingly don't care that much. B) Multiculturalism is and never has been a threat to the dominant culture. It has more benefits than disadvantages. C) The statement "All religions are against homosexuality, therefore homosexuals cannot be religious," (though not verbatim what you said, I believe it captures the idea) is inherrently, logically flawed. Consider this simple substitution for that syllogism: "All Americans don't like Arabs, therefore there are no Arab Americans." It's wrong on two grounds - One, because it is a sweeping generalization that disregards individuals within a group, and simplifies the complexity of their frames of reference. It neglects the huge debate within religion itself about whether or not homosexuality is wrong, as well as a million and one other theological debates within a single religion. Just because you have two Christians in a room together does not mean they will agree on every theological question. I am using Christianity as an example, but it can apply to any and all religions. The second thing it does is make the assumption that just because some people of a group hold one opinion, there cannot be others who are members of that group, regardless. They will more than likely disagree with members who hold that view (an Arab American will probably not hate Arabs), but not necessarily. Particularly in the case of homosexuality, where within religion you will find several self-loathing gays trying to be good Christians in, as they believe, spite of themselves. Gay people can be religious. They can be very religious. They can be spiritual, just like anyone else. Just because they're gay doesn't mean they don't believe in God.

Monrose A) I agree, but it's that simple. We can't just let everybody in because they're suffering. We also need to think about what's the best for the majority and how the immigrants are being integrated. If we let fewer people in, we can focus on them and get them jobs. Almost 14% of all the immigrants from Africa are unemployed. We can't have that in our country. Sure, our economy is good, but we don't do anything with our money. One solution is to send a lot of the immigrants to Africa where we can build a reception center, but that was an 'ignorant' idea. B)Oh, do tell. Food? I know. Clothes? I know. And the list goes on and on. But it comes to a point where the minority is growing. Every seen the film 'Fitna'? It may be propaganda, but they use statistics. I'm not saying that they're right, but it is something we should think about. There's already 'ghettos' in Norway. We have something called 'The morality police'. They are controlling muslim girls. Telling them what to wear, who to talk to and how to act. If they don't follow, they'll recieve death treaths. And this is in the town next to mine. Oh, yeah, multiculturalism is good to a certain point. And we've reached it. C) Mm, no that's wrong. First of all, I meant Christianity. But also Islam and Catholicism. Second, an Arab can be American because the country itself doesn't dislike them. The Americans (the supporters) does. I haven't said they can't be religious. The Bible clearly says that every homosexual should die. I know if I were gay, I wouldn't believe in anything that offensive. The whole religion (as well as others) are uncivilized and ignorant when it comes to certain subjects. But I can also see this from a true believer's point of view. If I was a part of something and I dovoted my whole life to that, and it said that gay people are 'sinniers', and then those sinners would come and break the rules that I lived by, I would be really angry. It's like a person from KKK would work at a reception center for immigrants.

Cinders OK, I am completely ignorant about the immigration situation in Norway. I am only familiar with the situation in the United States. And in the United States, the jobs illegals obtain are jobs that need to be done, but no average white American would ever want to do. Second of all, the trials and tribulations immigrants go through just to escape the ridiculous injustices of their home country are tremendous, and if you have no idea what kind of journey they go on before they reach America, I strongly suggest watching the documentary De Nadie. Of course, like I said, that's the American situation. So I doubt anyone will watch it, because it's long, and because several people would rather remain ignorant (but probably, mostly, for the first reason). But it's all about understanding the experiences other people have, and who they are as a person. How can you put a value on an individual? On a group of individuals? And multiculturalism - No, I wasn't even thinking about superficial things like different foods and clothes. That's just scraping the surface. I'm talking about brand new perspectives, ideas and ways of thinking that are introduced into an otherwise homogenous group. Different ways of thinking allows for challenges to common assumptions. I'm blessed to have grown up in an exceptionally multicultural environment, and it has made me a more empathetic, better educated human being. I understand how different cultures work and think, and it allows me to see things how they do, and thus come to a compromise. This ability has transferred over to how I discuss politics. By trying to understand the completely different mindset of a conservative republican, for example, not only can I explain my side in a way that she would understand, but I can better understand her thinking on the issue. Multiculturalism brings color to a black and white world. How boring would it be if everyone looked the same, acted the same, believed the same things? How much progress would we make in a world like that? If everyone thought the world was flat, and no one saw it any differently, then we would still believe the world is flat. If everyone thought it was impossible to go to the moon, we wouldn't have a space program. If everyone believed in spontaneous generation, or Linnean evolutionary theory of unchangeable species, then we would have never revised those theories. Still don't believe me? Experts back me up. As for the fear that minority cultures will "overwhelm" the majority (generally, White culture), we aren't going extinct. In fact, from a global perspective, Whites have always been a minority, and the only reason we consider ourselves special is social and historical causes that have lead to White Privilege. The Bible - Yes, Leviticus does explicitly express that homosexuals, along with a long list of other kinds of "sinners", should be "put to death." But you don't see many Christians going around killing sinners, do you? That's because you can have faith in a religion, but not exhibit every aspect of that religion, or even interpret it literally. There is a strong argument that the laws against homosexuality in the Bible-- like the laws against wearing mixed fabrics, or eating shell fish-- is outdated. There are other arguments that it wasn't against gay love, but against gay (or straight) lust, specifically. Several people have pointed out the lack of reference against lesbianism in the Bible, as when homosexuality is referred to, it's in a male context. It's not simply "I don't agree with one thing in the Bible, therefore I'm going to throw my entire Christian faith out the window." The Bible has several interpretations, and several different kinds of followers. I don't want to get into the gay marriage argument, which is what I think you're alluding to. However, I will say this - there are murderers who are Christian. Gamblers. Drinkers, fornicators, thieves, and proselytizers, all of whom are also Christians. And no one can tell them what faith to have, or that they are sinners so God doesn't love them. In fact, the Christian faith argues the exact opposite of that logic. All are welcome in the faith. All are sinners. We just have different sins, and different opinions on what a "sin" is.

Sappp Fitna? The only thing I learned from Fitna is that the propaganda mechanisms the Nazi's used are still viable today. Geert Wilders has a big mouth. He talks and talks and the only thing he does with all that talking is polarizing the Dutch society. He's a hatefull man and a big hypocrit saying he has every freedom to say what he want, but at the same time trying to take away other people's freedom. His party is undemocratic as are his views of how to deal with immigrants and muslims. Fitna is not a good reference for debate. You may agree with the sentiment, but the maker is heavily biased, the quotes from the Quran are badly translated and used out of context. He even used the wrong picture of Theo van Gogh's killer.

Monrose I don't think it's right to dicuss the situation in Noreay, I just wanted to explain why I feel this way about it. The situation in America is very different, mostly (from my perspective) because of the cultural differences isn't that many. And because most of them works. Everybody is worth the same in general, yes, but it's nothing personal about the situation. It's what's best for our country and the people who are already citizents of it. I've lived among people from different cultures all my life. Some of my best friends are immigrants. Multiculturalism is a great thing, but as I've said - I think the limit has been reached. Just walk down our capital city, and you'll find Palestinian restaurants, Pakistani clothes shop and Mosques. And it's enough. That's the 'surface' of it. But then we have all the people - which is the real problem. Illegal immigrants, immigrants who don't wanna follow our rules, people who are determined to change our system and make it to a ccopy of their previous home which is in a war and the list goes on. We've let this go on too far. It's not about whether I believe you or not. I know the facts myself. Of course we're the same, I am not talking about racism as in different skin colors. I am talking about how people act and what they believe in. I know I judge people based on what they look and say, but there's nothing I can do about it. It's natural. When I see a woman in a niqab, I judge her. I think that she has to be very devoted to her religion, and that fact scares me. We are a minority in the bigger picture, but not in Norway. And I won't become a minority in Norway, because I will never let that happen. I don't tell people what to believe, I was just curious of how gay people could choose a religion that is generally negative towards homosexuality. Isn't the bible supposed to be god's own words? It's his opinions, and he wants gay people to burn in hell? The bible says it, you can't interpret that in another way?

Monrose @Sapp: It was the statistics I was referring to. And the quran does say a lot of bad stuff.

Sappp 'The bible says it, you can't interpret that in another way?' Yes you can interpret the Bible in an other way, why do you think there are different denominations in Christianity? Of course there are Christians who believe gays go to hell, but there are also Christian churches that marry gays (I'm not a Christian, but a friend of mine is and a gay couple was married in their church and their adopted child was baptised there) May I ask which statistics you are talking about precisely?

Monrose It's been a long time since I saw that movie, but the statistics over how many muslims will be living in Europe in... was it 2050? But when the bible says clearly that gays will burn in hell and that they are sinners, how on earth can people interpret that i a different way?

XDRoseLuvsHP Monrose, you make a really good point about racism not just being about skin colour. Illegal immigration is a problem. I don't think it is the most pressing issue in our country at the moment, but it is problematic. What I think is really bad though is how the press is showing these illegal immigrants. I saw on the news about politicians warning the public about illegal immigrants; that they are all violent Mexicans who hate America. There is also racial profiling. My mum cannot even go to Arizona because she has features that may cause her to be profiled, even though she's perfectly legal. But yeah, there are problems that come with illegal immigration. So I largely agree with Cinders on this point, but I also agree with some aspects of Monrose's argument. Now I have no idea what is going on in Norway so I guess there's not much I can say on that other than it sounds really horrible and I hope it gets better. Yeah, it's true. Everyone judges people on appearance (unless they are blind)... it's just the way it is. But it's when people say everyone who is __ is evil, or something like that, and then they take hateful actions against those people... that's what is really bad. Sometimes it is good to judge a person by their appearance, but not to a hateful extent. It has limits, and it's a fine line. I'm not Christian, so I may be misunderstanding, but as far as I know, the Christian religion states that everyone is a sinner. So that means straight people are sinners too. But it's about God forgiving people of their sins. So why is it such an issue? I actually know some gay people who are very strong Christians. I'm not sure what the thinking behind it is, since people seem to claim that Christianity is against homosexuality (though I'm still not sure about that. People may be interpretting it incorrectly, and maybe it's just the custom of that time period. It was thousands of years ago, so it may have been different then) but as far as I know it doesn't seem like such a crime. I think hate is more of a crime than love. Multiculturalism is a good thing, I think. It teaches people about different people, and if we mix together, maybe we'll realize that we're not so different after all, and the differences that are there are (oftentimes) things to celebrate, not to hate.

Cinders "Multiculturalism is a great thing, but as I've said - I think the limit has been reached. Just walk down our capital city, and you'll find Palestinian restaurants, Pakistani clothes shop and Mosques. And it's enough. That's the 'surface' of it. But then we have all the people - which is the real problem." But I just said that the benefits of multiculturalism go way beyond food and clothes and shops. It is about the people, and the contributions they can make for a more diverse, and therefore more productive and successful society. "Of course we're the same, I am not talking about racism as in different skin colors. I am talking about how people act and what they believe in." I am also not talking about race. The keyword in multiculturalism is culture, after all, which can include race, but also ethnicity, traditions, religions, behavior, beliefs and attitudes. I'm saying that these differences benefit us, because otherwise we would never move forward. "We are a minority in the bigger picture, but not in Norway. And I won't become a minority in Norway, because I will never let that happen." In the United States, White Americans are also becoming a minority. Blacks, Asians, Latinos, etc, are increasing in numbers and soon I think it will reach a point where there is no majority in the United States. I will welcome that point. Too many White Americans live and experience White Privilege every day and don't even understand what it is. Peggy McIntosh has an excellent article on that very phenomenon. "I was taught to see racism only in individual acts of meanness, not in invisible systems conferring dominance on my group." - McIntosh The very fact that becoming a minority frightens you tells me that you might have an idea of what it's like to be a minority, am I right? I've been a minority. I was one of a small population of White people living in Egypt in high school. It was strange and awkward and isolating. I can understand not wanting that, especially in your own country, and I can understand how that can lead to antagonism. But I don't like it and I don't agree with it, especially being the multicultural individual that I am. And especially being aware of White Privilege and racism in America as I am. It's an injustice, and it does not think of the whole human race. But I suppose you're right when you say it's unavoidable. Regardless, I don't think that just because it can create tensions multiculturalism does more harm than good. In fact, like I've stated, I think it's the opposite. Though we still have racial tensions today in America, I think that in general we have greatly benefited from having so many different cultures and mindsets and ways of thinking. In the words of Rafe Esquith, "I take my students to a Dodgers game because it's there that I think they can see all that's right with America... and all that's wrong with America all in one place." I'm studying to be a teacher and my whole program is built around the concept of multiculturalism in America. I will be teaching students of all races, ethnicities, and backgrounds. Do I have my own prejudices, of course I do. And I will need to confront those prejudices and deal with it. It's never too late to correct a misconception about a person or a group of peoples. If America wasn't so diverse, I would not have to worry about multicultural education. I could assume that every student in my class was White and Christian and middle class, and then I would never have to worry about making a student feel inferior. But multiculturalism has forced me to step outside of my own understanding of the world and view it from someone else's perspective, and I'm glad for that. "I'm not Christian, so I may be misunderstanding, but as far as I know, the Christian religion states that everyone is a sinner. So that means straight people are sinners too. But it's about God forgiving people of their sins. So why is it such an issue? I actually know some gay people who are very strong Christians. I'm not sure what the thinking behind it is, since people seem to claim that Christianity is against homosexuality (though I'm still not sure about that. People may be interpretting it incorrectly, and maybe it's just the custom of that time period. It was thousands of years ago, so it may have been different then) but as far as I know it doesn't seem like such a crime. I think hate is more of a crime than love." Rose, this is absolutely correct. Firstly, you hit on my point that everyone sins in Christianity. It doesn't matter what your sins are, you can still be a Christian. Even Christians who do believe homosexuality is a sin, if they are good Christians, accept gays warmly into their church and their arms, because the Bible also says to be good to your fellow human beings, and to "hate the sin, not the sinner," (a phrase which, by the way, I'm not too fond of, but applies in this instance). I've stated before how homosexuality and Christianity can be interpreted multiple ways above. If there's something specific about my argument that you don't get, ask, but I feel Rose said it in a much clearer way than I did. If you missed it, it's up there under the heading "The Bible" in my previous comment.

Monrose XDRoseLuvsHP: I am just really curious about the gay-thing, it's not my opinion or anything. But even though the bible is old, it is still the rules of the religion. I can't just say I'm allowed to kill someone just because the constitution was written in 1814. It's still a rule that needs to be followed.

Monrose "But I just said that the benefits of multiculturalism go way beyond food and clothes and shops. It is about the people, and the contributions they can make for a more diverse, and therefore more productive and successful society." That's why I said it was the surface. And what do you mean about a more diverse society? "I am also not talking about race. The keyword in multiculturalism is culture, after all, which can include race, but also ethnicity, traditions, religions, behavior, beliefs and attitudes. I'm saying that these differences benefit us, because otherwise we would never move forward." You was in your article, that's why I brought it up. "In the United States, White Americans are also becoming a minority. Blacks, Asians, Latinos, etc, are increasing in numbers and soon I think it will reach a point where there is no majority in the United States. I will welcome that point. Too many White Americans live and experience White Privilege every day and don't even understand what it is. Peggy McIntosh has an excellent article on that very phenomenon." It's not the same for Norway and America. I think we are more different when it comes to culture and lifestyle and opinions about things. That's because your immigrants are mainly from Mexico etc. (right?), while our immigrants are from the Eastern world with different rules than ours. Of course I've been a minority in my own country, and compared to what it was like when I was younger, I can't say I like it very much. Certain schools in Norway are full of 'minorities' and white girls aren't allowed to wear a skirt or talk to guys without being called 'a whore'. Immigrants get better jobs (even in hospitals) than Norwegians because of their skin color, even though they aren't as qualified as the people who were supposed to get their jobs. The government did this because they don't want any racism when it comes to employment (which is so contradictory). That's how it works here, is it that strange that I am a bit critical to how our society evolves.

XDRoseLuvsHP That's a good point. So maybe the out-dating thing was a weak argument. But there are several contradictions in the Bible, so one could make the argument that homosexuality isn't truly against the Bible. There's the whole thing with "God loves EVERYONE", and then "EVERYONE is a sinner" so why is it any different? There are a few more that I've seen, although I do not remember them, and I've never read the Bible (I'm not even Christian) so I probably shouldn't talk too much about what I don't know.

MajorDork74 Much of this seems to bring to my mind an Old Testament story of a king who allowed his wife to talk him into allowing her 'friends' of another religion to practice. He reluctantly agreed but they had to worship outside the city. But, in consequence of this decision, it slowly leaked into the city and was one of the reasons for the cities downfall. I am trying to remember the whole story. XDRoseLuvsHP..."Love the Sinner, Hate the Sin." Simply put.

MissKnowItAll ^ I'm not sure I understand your point. I'm quite slow today- too tired...

formal_DeHyde As for the Bible, I believe it can be and has already been interpreted in various different ways. Hell, there is even a branch of research committed to examining and critically analyzing texts from the Bible. It's called Biblical exegesis. One of the main aspects in interpreting the scriptures is taking into account the way how they tie into the ancient culture of the time when they were written, and analyzing them within that framework. An example about the notion of homosexuality mentioned, in Leviticus 18:22, I believe. It states: "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable." Now, I do not see that as a clear argument as to whether or not homosexuals in our time should burn in hell - not delving into the concept of hell in this conversation, of course. Consider the role of a woman at that time. Women's rights basically didn't exist. It was a duty of a married woman to pleasure his husband whenever he feels like it. In essence, his husband could rape his wife anytime he would like and that would've been considered normal marital practice; women were considered inferior and sex was, in a way, a manifestation of a man's power over a woman. On that basis, some argue that the phrase "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman", simply means that man should have more respect for a fellow man than to downgrade him by treating him the same as a mere woman. After all, regardless of how much some people consider the Bible to be a word of God, it is written by people and therefore, not without flaw. Not to mention the numerous translations and revisions of the scriptures; even if it was the word of God himself, it is highly unlikely that its current form is in any way identical to what God meant it to be - hypothetically speaking.

XDRoseLuvsHP MajorDork74: I'm not sure I understand your point either... Haha I'm not being smart right now XD formal_DeHyde: This is true. I agree with this entirely. In fact, it was not even Jesus who wrote the Bible. His followers did so. In that time, many social standards were... um... rather closed-minded. Not specifically to The Bible, of course. That's true for EVERYONE of that time (well, not people individually... ah, you know what I mean). Back then, if a child cursed at their parental unit(s), they were to be stoned. That's just a tad bit outdated. Just a little. Women who were raped were expected to marry their rapists. Do people still expect that? Not really. Women had virtually no rights, like you said. Women were seen as property. People also had prejudices. No doubt there were prejudices against people of different skin colour and such. Now, this is not to say that the Bible is wrong or anything. I'm just saying that people shouldn't take it word-for-word.

alismouha I feel like my IQ has just gone up 90 points by reading a page of comments.